CyprusLiving

Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum and will be arriving in Paphos 1st November with my husband to live permanently there. We are trying to find a villa with a swimming pool. We are both retired and would like to hire someone to maintain the pool. Sorry if this has been asked before, what is the true cost of pool cleaning? We are trying to work our budget and from what I read here on the forum it looks to be rather expensive? Any information would be appreciated.

A ballpark figure would do, just to get an idea of what we are talking about.

Thanks.

Haymarket.

welcome to CL admin!

Hi Haymarket.
We pay about £90 euros per month including Chemicals, very reliable, he has done our pool for the last 4 years. He also dose other jobs gardens etc. I have been in this Business now for thirty years,and still am. And seeing some other pool Maintenance people he is not to bad.

Hope this helps and gives you some idea of cost, There might be other members who live there that also can give you some help.
Regards Steve.

It really isn't that difficult a task to take on yourself, either physically or in terms of expertise.
In fact it is quite a satisfying chore to have.

If you are retiring here I'd only consider paying someone to maintain the pool if
(a) the money means nothing to you; &/or
(b) you have physical limitations to the extent that would prevent you from for instance doing the hoovering or a bit of light gardening

Bear in mind that there is a hidden cost above & beyond the monthly fees you are quoted. Pro cleaners typically let your pool pump do some of the work for them as they only show up once or twice per week depending on season. These extra hours running the pump give you a higher electricity bill, not something to ignore given the price of power here. If you are dilligent in doing it yourself (in practice that means spending 5 mins every morning fishing out leaves etc) & time your regular pool vacuuming session for when the pump would be running anyway then you probably save hundreds over the course of a year.

Flying Tonight wrote:[quote="Stank Olly"Bear in mind that there is a hidden cost above & beyond the monthly fees you are quoted. Pro cleaners typically let your pool pump do some of the work for them as they only show up once or twice per week depending on season. These extra hours running the pump give you a higher electricity bill, not something to ignore given the price of power here.

Are you saying that pool cleaners run the pump for longer than is necessary then?

If you have a particular problem with your pool then it is sometimes necessary to run the pump continuously for a period of time to resolve the issue but I cannot see how running a pool pump for longer helps the pool cleaner other than by skimming a bit more debris from the service. Depending on the type of pump that you have you will run it for between 2 and 5 hours per day, unless you have a non chlorine system in which case it can be much longer.

I have never come across anyone who has set a pump for longer than this and am intrigued to know of your experiences that lead you to say this.[/quote]

The experience is no more than having 2 cleaners who used to do it with my place (clearly believing, rightly or wrongly, that there was merit in the idea). Since moving here & taking on the job myself, taking the time to try to educate myself a little, I have realised that it's extremely wasteful. My development has approx 50 properties each with their own pool. A very high percentage of my neighbours keep the place as a holiday home or rent out commercially. There are 7 different pool guys that look after these places. From speaking to the owners these people all run the pump between 8-12 hours per day. I completely agree with you regarding the stupidity of this but in my experience it is the norm not the exception.
Of the 7 cleaners I think one does a good job & is reliable, 2 are OK, the remaining 4 are fraudulent chancers who do as little as possible only sorting the pool out a week prior to the owners arrival for a holiday. Of those 7 I reckon only the good one actually declares the income for tax purposes.
I'm a bit shocked to see what some of the various property maintenance people get up to when they think they aren't being watched. There are a few that use the places for personal family pool/sunbathing sessions on a regular basis & even one that I strongly suspect rents the place out without informing the owner or paying him

We got stopped in Coral Bay by Maria from the Social Insurance office
No problem for us as fully legal
But she did ask us to take note of others vehicle registration's, place's they are working at etc & report them, the numbers if any one is intersted is 26821226 or 26821224

Hi All.
Dose any house owner ask prior to taking on swimming pool maintenance companies if there staff or individuals are qualified first. Most i believe might not be.

Regards Steve.

I've yet to come across one with any formal qualifications.
What exams can you pass & where would you do the course? The only ads I've seen are for 2 day things & I struggle to see how much you can learn from those that you couldn't pick up from a decent book

Hi Stank Olly
As you know you only learn buy doing a real apprenticeship, we have always done this,in our Company not easy in these times. It is very important that you know the basics of Chemicals and there make up, as they are potentially very dangerous. If you ask any pool maintenance people what dose PH mean that will give you some idea of there knowledge on Chemicals. Its taken me 30 years in this trade but you never stop learning

Regards Steve.

I can't believe some of the rubbish I'm reading on here!

The two day course (I assume you mean the CPO course, is increduibly intense, and for those with limited experience, WILL make them a better pool cleaner, although is NOT a legal requirement for any pool here (it is, after all, an american standard) There is actually NO legal requirement for any qualification for domestic pool maintenance anywhere in Europe, although certain countries will expect all tradesmen to be adequately ensured...

pool cleaners can get liability insurance if they hold specific ISRM (Eu recognised) qualifications, but this would be invalidated if they did not adhere to the ISRM guidelines re. pump running times, which is possibly where the "Pro cleaners typically let your pool pump do some of the work for them" comes from?
Social insurance is another thing altogether; YOU are responsible for ensuring that anyone you employ to do any paid work is leagally entitled to work here, (and can be prosecuted if they are not) so ask to see their most recent SI receipt, as they may have chosen to drop back below the radar!

In reality, most pool cleaners will NOT leave your pool-pump on for longer than it needs; we all get big electricity bills too!

I've got to take issue at the very least with the tone of this post if the bulk of it is responding to what I've posted on this thread.

It's certainly not 'rubbish' to state that most cleaners will leave the pump on for too long where I live. In fact it is the reality for everyone I know. This may well be because it has taken a while for villa owners to cotton on & reflect the lack of decent pool cleaners in the area. The seemingly best qualified & most professional guy, with 10 years personal experience, business passed down from his father who had at least that long in the business simultaneously hit all his customers with spurious repair bills for thousands (pipes suddenly needed fixing, pumps & liners replacing etc). It turned out that he was going through a divorce & needed fast cash.
What you say may well be perfectly correct for the area you operate in, it isn't here.

From the various replacement cleaners hired nobody claims to have much experience, & certainly none cite qualifications. All of them run the pump for at least 8 hours per day. So what I've put is an accurate reflection of the experience myself & my neighbours. In our reality most pool cleaner DO leave the pump running for longer than it needs. The best of them come once per week in colder months & twice in summer to perform checks & do a clean. The worst just look over the fence once a week to check the water hasn't gone green unless the owner or tenants are in residence. Why should I lie? I have no axe to grind here in terms of drumming up trade. I don't clean any pool but my own & have no intention of soliciting to do so.

As regards the course all I asked was 'what is available & worth doing?' I'm well aware that whilst things have been going fine self managing my pool for the last few months I'm in trouble if something out of the ordinary happens. As a result I'd be keen to get any education I can. At the extreme of intensity if pupils are denied sleep & meal breaks a 2 day course is 48 hours. In reality I'm sure there is change from 20 hours. A lot can be learned in that time but let's not try & claim it is brain surgery if you're genuinely fully educated at the end of such a short time span. I'd love to be told that the 2 day course is all I need to know, & if so I will book to attend it.

I think, that you are 100% missing the point;
swimming pools SHOULD be run for 8 hours a day in the summer! the guideline from ALL pool equipment manufacturers the world over is "a minimum of two complete cycles in a day during summer months" there is NO logical reason why this should be ignored just because the electricity is expensive here...

The power situation last summer, meant that many of us were forced to let pumps stay off for longer than usual... and the incredibly wet winter has led to a greater level of water-changes, and as such less pool-problems this summer, so many of us have now adopted last year's times, as "the norm"

but let's take this example of a Saratoga-type 8m x 4m pool (because there's loads of them in Paphos)
the pool is 44m3
the pump (ultraflow 1.1KW; one of the most efficient available here) although rated at 18m3/h, will be running through a filter which creates about a bar of pressure (equivalent to a 10m head), plus any head on the system, and any loss of performance due to plumbing... it is actually very unlikely that that pump will achieve even 10m3/h!
working on those figures, the set-up should be running for nine hours a day!
The real FACT is, most pool cleaners, whether full-time legal workers, or retired "just to help stretch the pension" will know this, but because the owners will not want to be stuck with a €270 electric bill every two months, they chose to raise the chlorine level to compensate for the shorter pump running time.

back to the original issue; LOCAL recommendations will find you the best value local pool-cleaner; there's no point in paying someone from Pegeia to drive to Secret Valley twice a week! Ask your agent or developer to recommend someone, or visit the nearest pool-shop, but don't sign up to a years contract until you are sure you really are getting a good deal!

hi-lux and stank olly,
from my reading of your posts it seems you are both saying the same thing but using different words with the odd bit of advice/information added on. No need to get hot under the collar at all.

explodingaardvark wrote:hi-lux and stank olly,
from my reading of your posts it seems you are both saying the same thing but using different words with the odd bit of advice/information added on. No need to get hot under the collar at all.

'problem is Olly appears to have a problem with pool cleaners period, and will look at any oportunity to run them down... check his posts on other threads and you'll see what I mean ! If he gets upset or hot under the collar when somebody opposes his viewpoint, then he shouldn't use a "forum" in the first place!

Hi Golden Hi Lux.
I agree with your comments on pump running times, you are a 100% correct. I think we all have a choice, if you are unhappy with the service that you are given then find some other pool cleaner. I have been more than happy with ours,and if he is not sure on some issues, he will contact me first thats all you can ask.
Regards Steve.

I think I've been misrepresented here.

I thought that I'd made it clear (a) that I'm an amateur when it comes to pool maintenance; (b) that when I denigrate any pool cleaners it is based on my limited personal experience where I live.

With respect to (a), & specifically how long a pump needs to operate I am happy to be corrected if 8 or 9 hours is the required daily running time. Aside from manufacturer recomendations can anybody explain the science behind why this is necessary? Genuine enquiry, I want to learn as much as I can.
I cut my time down to 4 having read posts on this forum from people who claim to have had no problems doing this over the course of several years. I've had no problems with this myself all summer. Though I do seem to be using a bit more chlorine than those who run their pumps for longer. A scoop of chlorine once per week is a lot cheaper than the electricity bill for 28 hours extra pump time though so I'd like to know what the disadvantage is in this strategy, if any

As far as (b) goes then yes it is fair to say that I have a very low opinion of most of the pool cleaners I have come across. This isn't a blanket hatred of an entire profession. The last guy I had before I moved over & took on the job myself is very good & I don't hesitate to recommend him to anyone in the area who is a non-resident property owner in need of pool maintenance. But for this one trustworthy professional I can name at least ten lazy, unprofessional, tax dodging chancers. It's these 'rogue traders' that I have distain for, but it's their attitude to customer care & fair business practice I complain about not their choice of job. I get similarly irritated by workshy fraudsters that advertise their services in other fields & damage the good name of genuine professionals.

Hi Stank Olly.
I can understand your frustration, and i don't think you will be the only one out there including me. The First cleaner that we took on all talk and no knowledge, this is so frustrating
when you are in this type of Business, and you are not there. He got made redundant. The new pool cleaner is very good, and when i have been out there i have explained and helped him on swimming pool maintenance. He is now very good and really trustworthy. I cant understand that any pool cleaner or Swimming Pool Engineer,dose not give there Clients a contract sheet of all involved works to be done. You will then know exactly what you will be paying for.

Regards Steve

[quote="Stank Olly"]Aside from manufacturer recomendations can anybody explain the science behind why this is necessary? Genuine enquiry, I want to learn as much as I can.
I cut my time down to 4 having read posts on this forum from people who claim to have had no problems doing this over the course of several years. I've had no problems with this myself all summer. Though I do seem to be using a bit more chlorine than those who run their pumps for longer. A scoop of chlorine once per week is a lot cheaper than the electricity bill for 28 hours extra pump time though so I'd like to know what the disadvantage is in this strategy, if any
quote]

Chlorine is a very effective oxidising agent, (as is ozone, u/v light etc) and has the advantage of continuing to work after the pump is running. it is however a chemical with carcenogenic properties, and deserves to be treated with respect. manufacturers know this, and advise moderation to avoid later law-suits!
increasing the running time allows a reduction in the level of chlorine in the water, while still maximising the redox potential of the water, which is obviously safer.

I had to look up what 'redox potential' means (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduction_potential)
It would appear that this is something to do with the extent to which the water acquires electrons. I'll be honest, I'm none the wiser.

Can you explain in laymans terms what the implications of this & real world adverse impact are please?

I don't follow the logic in what you say about chlorine. If the regular test shows that chlorination levels are ideal where does over-concentration come into it?

Sorry Olly, haven't been on here for ages!

everything left in water either grows, or decays... put simply this depends on "redox potential" of the water... it's measureable with an ORP meter, which gives you a current in mV. if the figure is minus, stuff grows, if it's plus, it is broken down (decays) anything you do to the water will change that rate and change the reading.
tapwater = +300mv
seawater = +450mv
poolwater should be around +700mv
if you turn the pump off for a few days, the figure starts dropping dramatically, and stuff starts growing, as it gets closer to zero, unless you keep piling in the chlorine!

Please tell me if that makes bno sense to you; I have a habit of trying to explain this and no-one has a clue what I'm talking about!

No probs, I come on here quite sporadically too!

(I think) that makes sense to me.

Without circulation the water starts to stagnate so needs to be treated with extra chemicals?

If my take is correct, but the extra chlorine (in my case 1 scoop per week) sorts the situation out, leaving tested chlorine levels in the safe zone, then where is the harm?
I was half expecting you to tell me that the piece of the jigsaw that I was missing was that the extra chlorine dose accelerated the degradation of the liner or some such. If this isn't the case then surely the pump running time/chlorine dosage balance (given good regular water test results) must just boil down to finance. I.e. if the cost of the extra chlorine is less than the price of the electricity required for extra pump time then what I'm doing is the optimal approach?

I realise that my situation is different to that of an absentee pool owner as no pool cleaner can be expected to show up more than once or twice per week depending on season, whilst I'm helping matters a fair amount by manually skimming/emptying skimmer traps almost daily in addition to twice weekly vacuuming & backwashing regularly. Perhaps it also helps that I swim in it for an hour per day as that must circulate/aerate the water somewhat, much as running the pump does.

I'm definitely an amateur but to my untrained eye the results of what I do are good. The water sparkles, the test results are always bang in the middle of the desired range & nobody has complained of ear infections/gippy tummy

it's all a question of exposure; chlorine (and copper-based algaecides) are about the nastiest substances that we will willingly expose ourselves to; with little change, these are WMDs! yet we happily say "oh that's ok... I'll just lob in another tablet"!
with regards to liners, I've probably seen only a half dozen that need replacing due to over use of chlorine, but all of those have been due to "letting the pool go over the winter when the pump wasn't running..." so I guess that backs up that expectation!

anything you can do to raise that redox potential without adding the chemicals is better for you... even doing 25 lengths in the morning and 25 in the afternoon, instead of 50 in one go has an effect (the eddy currents last twice as long!)
I can quote you two pools; both have the same systems with one difference; one has a "water-wizzard" (now obselete, but a bit like Steve conway's "Alligator" ioniser) they've both ran for just 4 hours a day, the ionised pool with little more than floating on lilos, the one without has a gentleman powering through the lengths every day! as he showers before using the pool, he adds no impurities and effectively becomes an additional "pump" moving the water around! when he went on holiday, the pool looked cloudy until the pump running time was increased.
on his return, he dropped the time, continues his fitness regime, and the pool went back to normal!
it's all about the redox!

that's my secret then....

The 100 lengths twice per day I've been doing was meant to be for my health but it seems I've had the spin off benefit of redox improvements!

regarding running times...

WATCH OUT!

viewtopic.php?f=106&t=44160

This is a strange & disturbing story.

As ever the usual disclaimer that I an not an expert but logic says to me that there should be loads more similar tales from all over the world.
Doesn't everybody cut their pump time down over winter? And surely the cooler temps mean slower rate of dissolving tablets at that time? So shouldn't this should happen to everyone every winter???

We've got at least 3 decent pool pros on this forum & not one of them has reporting seeing anything similar in their career which must be a combined total of decades of experience. I can't find any reports of similars problems in other countries after an admittedly brief google.

Anyway I'm disturbed enough to start putting the tablets into a floating dispenser rather than the skimmers, but not enough to add 1500 hours of pump time per year to my electricity bill.

Hi Stank Olly.
Some times even i get confused with some of the Questions that we all get on our topic page
but after 34 years of running Merlin Swimming Pools here in the UK and still. Its like all many items that we use every day Common sense must also be used. With Chlorine Tablets i would say 90% of my 2,000 Customers use them either in there skimmers or in a floating dispenser or in a pre loaded container that can not be refiled with out any problems. When you winterize and if your Swimming pool pump is going to be turned off or run on a short period, remove your Chlorine tablet as you will get a strong dose of concentrated Chlorine and Acid from your tablets left in your pool pipe work.
Not good for any Material. Just use Hypochlorite Granules but always dilute before adding to your water. Even in normal swimming pool running times split your pump running times over 24 hour period this gives you a constant flow of water. All pumps really should run for 8 hours per day
to give you the correct water turn over through your sand filter. Hope this is of some help to you.

Regards Steve.

stephen conway wrote:use Hypochlorite Granules

Steve,

I'm always VERY wary of recommending Calcium Hypochlorite; we have rediculously hard water in most of Cyprus (certainly Paphos area) and to be perfectly frank, If people are having to ask about something basic, then it's unlikely they will be balancing alkalinity, so they could end up with a hell of a mess!
also it's very common here to simply view ANY chlorine as "chlorine"; you and I know that Hypo can be nasty stuff if it's not had it's allowed reaction time...

it's far safer for "amateurs" to use dichlor or trichlor granules over the winter, so they can jump in the pool in an hour when they use the leftovers in the summer!

Hi Golden Hi Lux.
I can understand what you are saying,most people only know one kind of Chlorine but as you know using Stabilized Chlorine will raise your Cyanuric acid levels this will also cause problems as well. we are located in Colchester our water is also very hard and an ALK from tap of 230. but you have to correct with either plus or minus. I was in Cyprus two weeks ago and needed some stabilized Chlorine, i can see what problems you can have,I brought some Chlorine with a brand name well after opening it and trying to dilute in a bucket impossible cant believe how bad these Chemicals are, also full of Cyanuric Acid, would not want to use these in a liner pool, would cause major bleaching of Liner.I can see were you are coming from, but only trying to give some advice on swimming pools that might be of some help to you and others. Just to give you an insight of our Company's for you to see, might be breaking the rules here i don't know but. http://www.merlinswimingpools.co.uk stuff4pools.co.uk aligator.com sorry.

Regards Steve.

Steve, I think Jim will let that one stay; you do advertise on here after all!
I think you're certainly right about the quality of some of what we get here; I recently handed back a pool to the owners son (now CPO trained) and within six months, the liner is showing serious bleaching around the bottom drain! He's adamant that he's only adding the same quantity of chlorine that I was (we both keep records) so it must be the quality of his product!

Cyanuric IS a problem here; we'd worked out years ago, that "the solution to pollution is dilution", and view every storm, not as "free water" but "free water change"
a rough guide I've used is (as most of our pools out here are around 40 tonnes, and 200g tablets contain around 40g of Cyanuric acid) "for every tablet you put in, the Cy will be raised one ppm" so by the end of the summer, if you've used two buckets of tabs (100 tabs), you've raised the Cy by 100ppm; it's only very rough, but it shows how much of a problem you've got to deal with over the winter. now take that 100ppm and start logging down your water changes in centimetres; once you start getting close to 100cm, problem's gone!
obviously this doesn't include any water loss from backwashing over the summer, but it's a better guide than none at all!

I hasten to add this is only rough, and yet again if you don't know what you've put in, you don't know what you need to take out! I am amazed every time I get asked to "come and have a look at what's wrong with my pool" just how often "I always put a tablet in each skimmer when they start to break up" is the ONLY sort of "water-quality monitoring" that has been used!
The good thing about this method, is that people normally remember how many buckets of tablets they've bought over the season!
anyway, we're drifting off subject; I'll start a Cyanuric thread sooner or later!

Steve, I think Jim will let that one stay; you do advertise on here after all!

Ian your wrong he doesn't but he is the moderator here..we all know websites are free to run