CyprusLiving

Do our existing Wills have to be changed to comply with the new EU law (Reg 650/12) so that we can elect to have our Will executed in the UK and not Cyprus ?

Picking up on alewfin's unanswered question....our wills relating to our Cyprus-based assets (house in effect) have been changed so that English law rules will be applied following the JUly Cyprus moves on clause 42/ new EU regulation in August 2015.

Q. Do we still have to "do" Probate in Cyprus or can it (now) be done in UK?

This may have been asked/answered before..apologies if I missed it but woud be grateful for a heads-up/links on this.

For UK nationals, probate still needs to be obtained in Cyprus. Because the UK opted out of the EU legislation, the benefit of having a single probate which covers all EU countries signed up to the legislation does not apply.

The benefit of the legislation for UK nationals is that they can direct, in their Will, that when probate is applied in Cyprus, English law applies to the distribution of their Cypriot estate. This means that the Cypriot laws which stipulate who inherits a share of Cypriot estate don't apply.

Paul
Willpower

thanks Paul..as a matter of interest were there any other countries where the "opt-out" was applied by their government?..i.e. their nationals, like us, still need to "do" probate in Cyprus (or wherever)?

Nationals from UK, Denmark and Eire and all countries outside of the EU will still need to apply for probate in Cyprus - or in another EU country (excluding UK, Demark and Eire) where they have assets.

P

Does anyone know if the recent EU directive applied to Wills retrospective? In other words is your Will held before the Directive came in to force still binding? Or does the directive apply only to New Wills after the directive came in.......

daveg wrote:In other words is your Will held before the Directive came in to force still binding?

No it isn't - you must review your will to your estate is dealt with as you wish - according to Cypriot law - or English law.

Regards,

Whilst I truly believe that „Brussels IV“ is a great achievement of the EU, I am not sure it has dealt with all our problems.

The problem seems to be that even if we have chosen out home countries´ rules of succession, it may well be that the probate will have to be granted in Cyprus: In Cyprus, in Greek and with expensive executors (or lawyers employed by those). The problem then is not to apply the chosen law but to get it done!

This in any case will be expensive and time consuming:

Article 4: The courts of the Member State in which the deceased had his habitual residence at the time of death shall have jurisdiction to rule on the succession as a whole.
Article 5: (paraphrased) The courts of the country of habitual residence may decline and refer to the courts of the home country, if one of the parties request it to do so and if the court in convinced, that a court in the country of the chosen law is better placed to deal with the case.

One hand, one would expect the Cypriot court to immediately refer the case to a court in the country of the chosen law. On the other, this may not be relied on. Amongst 600.000 or so Cypriots there are 6.000 lawyers now and some suspect that judges might be inclined to keep cases here and such generate “jobs for the boys”. There is not much one could do against it. The case is actually much more difficult and expensive for people from countries where English is not the language.

If a Cypriot court deals with the case, the heirs will clearly have to deal with costs, travel and hustle.

There is a further problem to all of this.

If local lawyers are going to deal with probate based on the laws of another EU country:

They will need intimate knowledge of those country's inheritance laws. So they'll need intimate knowledge of the laws of Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and the UK as well as the laws of Cyprus.

That's just not possible!

Regards,

Very much so,

but SOME suspect that brotherhood beats logic and common sense....

The problem seems to be that even if we have chosen out home countries´ rules of succession, it may well be that the probate will have to be granted in Cyprus

Replace the words 'may well be' with 'is definite' - at least for UK nationals. Because the UK didn't sign up to the agreement then UK nationals don't benefit from the single certificate of succession provisions in the regulation, which would have enabled probate obtained in the UK to apply in Cyprus.

If local lawyers are going to deal with probate based on the laws of another EU country:

They will need intimate knowledge of those country's inheritance laws. So they'll need intimate knowledge of the laws of Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and the UK as well as the laws of Cyprus.

For nationals from those countries, with the exception of Ireland, Denmark (who, like the UK, opted out of Brussels IV), the single certificate of succession will apply so probate won't be needed in Cyprus for those nationals, as the probate obtained in their 'home country' will be suffice to distribute Cypriot estate. Or at least that's what the law says, but in Cyprus what the law say is meaningless when it comes to enforcing the legal system. So, in theory at least, local lawyers will be redundant when it comes to administering Cyprus estates for those nationalities, if they have made the election.

For people from non signatory countries it's only the succession arrangements which apply to the actual distribution of the estate that are electable, so up to that point, Cyprus laws on probate will apply. So still expect long delays and big lawyer bills. The headache will be working out what those succession arrangements will be when it comes to distributing the estate because the ability to make an election applies to any national, not just EU nationals, but every nationality on the planet, which makes the list rather long.

Baggysdad wrote:

For nationals from those countries...the single certificate of succession will apply so probate won't be needed in Cyprus for those nationals, as the probate obtained in their 'home country' will be suffice to distribute Cypriot estate. Or at least that's what the law says, but in Cyprus what the law say is meaningless when it comes to enforcing the legal system. So, in theory at least, local lawyers will be redundant when it comes to administering Cyprus estates for those nationalities, if they have made the election.

Well, let me repeat my concern. The Cypriot court is in charge by definition. It MAY then refer the case back to the home country and then the certficate from there will suffice and probate here should not be necessary and expensive lawyers redundant.
It is the "MAY" I am worried about. As said earlier: logic wouls suggest to refer back, Cyprus circumstance may not....

I'm a bit lost on all this, sorry

We have a will in CY from the last century for our properties there.
We have a will in the UK from a couple of years ago for all our assets here.

Is there a (brief) idiots guide somewhere ...

J B wrote:Is there a (brief) idiots guide somewhere ...

Anyone??

reading this may help..I think you'll need to make some changes to the wording of the Cyprus will from pre 2000.
http://www.cyprusliving.org/phpbb/nfphpbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59727

also Google e.g.
https://www.google.com.cy/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=cyprus%20will%20changes

I have been busy, and been away and totally forgot about this new law that came in last August. Can anyone recommend someone who can alter my will for me please? Some one who is knowledgeable and not going to rip me off like some lawyers do PM me if need be. Thanks in advance

We are just in the process of changing our wills at the moment. We go to sign them on Tuesday and after many recommendations we are using Marion Carter .

Here is a previous thread.. viewtopic.php?p=409539

Trev..

Thanks Trevhill for your information .