CyprusLiving

Hi,

Our communal insurance provider has given us 6 months to comply with fencing off around our communal pool area. The suggestion is that we have just one gated entrance to the pool area (there are 2 other entrances which are to be fenced off). This would stop anyone wandering into the pool area and falling in (children in particular).

Anyone else come up against this?

Regards

Martin

Whilst there may be regulations, no-one checks to see that they are in place and being enforced.

Forget it, change your Insurance Company, this is Cyprus after all.

Alan

I think where possible, communal pools SHOULD be fenced. The surrounding 'sun lounging' areas get used by kids for all sorts of games & it would be so easy to get too close to the pool edge, fall, bang head & end up in hospital, or worse still a morgue! A concern I have is at night, when the pool & communal lights are turned off!

Our insurer for the complex stipulated a set of Rules, but fencing the pool was not one of them. PM me if you'd like the name.

Great advice emgee, so when we find a little child floating face down in our pool, and the insurance company won't accept any liability because we haven't complied with regulations, should we simply shrug our shoulders and say 'this is Cyprus' whilst handing over the keys to our homes both in Cyprus and in the UK, and emptying our bank accounts to cover the compensation?.

Martin

Thanks Mike, I have just sent you a PM.

Regards

Martin

Reply to PM sent.

Also have a read of The Cyprus Property Buyers Guide, by Nigel Howarth. http://www.news.cyprus-property-buyers. ... id=0010688

Retroframe

It won't happen.

Alan

emgee wrote:Retroframe - It won't happen. Alan

If you mean by "it wont happen" that no one will be injured because of an accident in a pool, you are sorely misinformed! Every day in the USA 10 people die of drowning (http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalS ... sheet.html)

What is unclear is whether the local laws have been repealed and EU Directives now apply. Perhaps Nigel Howarth could update us, as the article I referred to was from 2012.

Mike

Compare the size of USA to Cyprus.

Our pool has signs at the entrances saying "enter at own risk" and we have pool rules displayed in Greek and English, one of which says that no children are allowed in the pool without family supervision.

Your pool is open to the public anyway.

Only the Committee members would be responsible for any pay-out if it was ever proved that an accident was the fault of the pool owners.

Regards

Alan

Burying your head in the sand is never the correct approach

Emgee

The committee merely represents the owners, with all owners still being potentially liable/culpable (a communal insurance policy would normally include a clause indemnifying the committee members anyway).

You are wrong if you think that you could simply pass the buck to the committee, you are the legal owner of your property, and you are jointly responsible for the communal areas in your complex.

Children can wander off (tell me someone that hasn't lost sight of their children momentarily at some point), and a young child on his/her own wouldn't be able to read a sign.

Martin

Only just seen this thread. As someone who has been involved in the pool safety business in Cyprus for the past ten years I can comment as follows:

Some municipalities in Cyprus are now insisting that communals pools are fenced with compliant pool safety fence before a completion certificate will be issued, which will then allow the issuance of title deeds. Notably Peyia in the Paphos region. A couple of years ago we installed a safety fence for a communal pool in Peyia, who were being refused a completion certificate until they did so.

Another small communal project in Peyia complained to their developer that they were unable to secure their deeds because the pool - which was dangerously accessible to anyone - was unprotected. Clearly unhappy at being asked to foot the bill for making the pool safe, the developer did little more than wrap some basic strands of wire around the pool, just centimetres from the water's edge. Any child could have crawled through, or under, the wire; it was pitifully shoddy in both concept and execution. Peyia municipality took one look and said "no way". So the residents completely removed the developer's botch, submitted our leaflet to Peyia Municipality, who confirmed that our product would be acceptable to them.

A very large communal project in Protaras recently invited us to quote. Same issue: the local municipality was concerned that the pool is freely accessible to all and sundry, including unsupervised children and that in the event of an accident they might be held partly responsible for allowing the status quo. It's not just under-fives either, teenagers are renowned for using someone else's pool without permission. And if they've been drinking, all the ingredients are there which could give rise to an accident. Here are a few drowning statistics from our own website: http://mysafepool.com.cy/?p=113

The French Raffarin Law http://www.holidaylettings.co.uk/resources/owner-advice/managing-rentals/the-raffarin-law-swimming-pools-in-france/a-1-32-118/ and Afnor regulations are considered the most stringent and highly enforced in the World. If you have an unprotected pool in France (even in your own back garden) you face an immediate fine of €45,000. These regulations were implemented in 2004 when the French government became concerned about the number of needless child drownings. Most American states also have local codes which require pools to be made safe and inacessible to unsupervised children. Watch any Australian soap (e.g. Neighbours), TV programme or movie and you will always see a compliant safety fence around the pool. Hot tubs are ring-fenced too. I believe that in Australia/New Zealand local authorities inspect the homes of pool-owners every two years to ensure that the safety fence is still in place and in good condition.

As far as private pools in Cyprus are concerned, it is very much up to the parent or grand-parent to recognise the danger posed by an unprotected pool and to want to do something about it. However, be aware, if a child - invited or otherwise - drowns, or suffers brain damage from a near-drowning event in your pool, you as the property owner are considered responsible and could be held liable for redress under law.

Emgee's suggestion that a disclaimer in the form of a warning sign is all that is needed to absolve liability is completely wrong. Since when can two year olds read signs? Would a Court absolve liability from a pool owner simply because he had erected a sign which could not be read by a toddler? Neither will shrugging shoulders while saying "this is Cyprus" carry much weight in a Court of Law.

In the case of a communal pool the buck stops with the insurer, so you can understand why some insurers are now insisting that all 'reasonable' measures are taken to prevent misadventure.

One of our customers who lives in Limassol has, for years, allowed his neighbouring children to use his pool pretty much as they want. Concerned that he might be liable in the event of an accident he called his lawyer to find out what the situation was. The lawyer confirmed that in the event of an accident in his pool, with or without him having given permission to use the pool, he would - or could - be held liable. He subsequently installed a safety fence, but this was as much to protect his own grandchild (his wife looked after their grandhild weekdays) as for potential liability issues.

Communal pool owners often come up with all sorts of (sometimes bizarre) ideas as to what would, or should, be acceptable to the municipality or to an insurer. However, in our work we are guided by the French regulations, on the basis that they may form the basis for future Europe-wide legislation.

Retroframe.

Sorry, but you are wrong. The Committee are the only ones responsible.

Alan

emgee wrote:Retroframe.

Sorry, but you are wrong. The Committee are the only ones responsible.

Alan

I really hope that a tragedy does not cause this kind of theory to be tested in court.

Maramike

This is not theory it is fact.

Alan

OK Alan, the committee are elected at an AGM by the owners to represent them. The committee in it's infinite wisdom, proposes to the meeting that they should erect a safety fence and the cost is €5,000 The owners take a vote, as is their right (it is after all their money) & by a majority vote, reject the proposal. I would say therefore if I was the Judge, that the owners are the one's wholly responsible. The committee did what they did in the best interest of the owners, but the owners (probably because they do not want to spend the money) said 'NO'.

Hi Retrofame.
We did ours about 2 years ago. We installed steel fencing and two gates with locks, each home owner has a key to enter our pool area, also sighs regarding locking gates after use. This now has to be done for your Communal Insurance on your pool area also you should have a Constitution with your Management Committee. Also this is required by your insurance Company. Not easy.
Regards Steve.

Not all insurance companies require fencing but I understand the need for fencing.

I have been told that our pool maintenance company (a well know local developer) has secured an exemption so our communal pool is not subject to these EU Regulations. Has anyone else come across this exemption?

If the company HAVE got an exemption then they will have a letter or document to that effect.
It should be available for people to see.

Trev..

Parttimers wrote:I have been told that our pool maintenance company (a well know local developer) has secured an exemption so our communal pool is not subject to these EU Regulations. Has anyone else come across this exemption?

As far as I am aware, Cypru shas not adopted these EU regulations (they are not compulsory). But something may change in the near future, see http://www.news.cyprus-property-buyers. ... id=0047368 (But don't hold your breath - there's be talk of them changing the law for the last 10 years to my knowledge).

Regards,

When I was Chairman of our Committee we took a laisse-faire attitude to the law. If we needed to comply with it to get things done, ie Title Deeds, then we did it but other things that were never checked out and still not have in 12 years, we never bothered with. Absolutely no problems. We have all the "at your own risk" etc signs in the appropriate places and "police" the pool if there are problems with drinking alcohol, kids swimming without supervision, non-residents etc.

It works for us.

Alan

emgee wrote:When I was Chairman of our Committee we took a laisse-faire attitude to the law. If we needed to comply with it to get things done, ie Title Deeds, then we did it but other things that were never checked out and still not have in 12 years, we never bothered with. Absolutely no problems. We have all the "at your own risk" etc signs in the appropriate places and "police" the pool if there are problems with drinking alcohol, kids swimming without supervision, non-residents etc.

It works for us.

Alan

It will work; until that is, there's a tragic accident & someone drowns. Then all hell will break loose; on the owners who said & did nothing; on the committee who didn't raise it as an issue, and to a lesser extent the poor person who lost their life or the parents if it was a child!

Mike

Why get involved in trying to spend money/do things that the Owners don't want you to do? All it does is cause frustration and heartache to the Committee. We have signs that cover us against claims, ie "enter at own risk", no lifeguard on duty, pool closed. Anyone who insists in entering the pool with these signs around the pool would surely be culpable should an accident happen?

Don't lose any sleep over it, it ain't gonna happen.

Alan

Hi Retrofame.
We did ours about two years ago, I did post this. We have two gates to our Pool area there are 9 dwellings in our Complex Both gates have locks and all Dwellings have there keys, we also have signs saying please lock gates when leaving pool area, plus other safety items that is required.
Regards Steve.

Have a read of this topic (related) viewtopic.php?f=1&t=58657