CyprusLiving

by **Islandboy** » 27 May 2015 20:24

Can anyone give me correct advice? Please!

My development wants to restrict access to its pool to its property owners only! Only the owners of the property's!

When I inquired into this I was told by:

One informed 'permanent' resident that the new government had decided that our little pool was now moved from Type 3 to Type 2 and that the development could no longer find insurance for the pool and access would have to limited to owners only!

When I pointed out that the 2008 EU legislation EN 15288-2 clearly stated that our pool was a Type 3 I was later told by another informed 'permanent' resident that I should get my facts right before quoting EU legislation that had not yet been brought into force in Cyprus.

I am confused by my informed 'permanent' residents!

Does anyone know of another Type 3 pool that the Cyprus government has chosen to reclassify as a Type 2

Does anyone know if EN 15288-2 is active law in Cyprus yet?

It is coming up to Villa letting time and we have family and children booked in and I don't know what to tell them about the use of our pool?

If you want to know something ask Cyprus Living :ympeace:

**Sponsor**

by **Rigsby** » 28 May 2015 05:17

Presumably your management committee has decided this policy. There is not very much the committee can do if your family decide to ignore this rule and use the pool. Unfortunately they will probably be told not to use it and made to feel uncomfortable if they do.

It rather sounds you have a couple officious types on your complex. I have friends with the same problem on their complex and it can get very nasty indeed. All you can do is get your lawyer to write them a letter.

by **Islandboy** » 28 May 2015 05:58

Thanks Rigsby,

You could be right but I need to know if what they are spouting has merit first.

Nearly 200 views since last night and no one has popped up to say that they know of another pool being re classified from a 3 to a 2 under EN 15288-2

Nor to confirm whether EN 15288-2 is in force. It came in EU wide in 2008 and is very clearly written. In the legislation it clearly stated that that law was superior to any local law in the EU. But as I continue to hear. But This Is Cyprus!

If The Committee are wrong and found to be wrong they will have a lot of very upset property owners to answer to!

So ..... awaiting the knowledge of Cyprus Living. The answer is out there!

by **Rigsby** » 28 May 2015 08:25

There is much EU legislation and Cyprus enforces as it wishes, but mostly ignores what is difficult or the authorities dislike. I don't think you are going to get a straight answer to your question. It may be helpful if I told you other complexes have had to a have a lifeguard, at least on paper, to get insurance. The way it is done is that the complex employs a fully qualified and approved life guard firm. That company puts up a sign saying "no life guard on duty at the moment, phone 99XXXXX for assistance."

You may think that it is silly having to phone a mobile number if someone is drowning! :roll:

But that does satisfy at least some insurers and apparently District Office.

Hope that helps.

by **Jimmy Greaves Legend** » 28 May 2015 09:14

I dont know the rules, But insurance is paramount, do you have Insurance to cover the people, that are renting your apartment/ using the pool , in case anything goes wrong!!!

by **andy01424** » 28 May 2015 09:16

Depends on your size depth and features>
http://www.news.cyprus-property-buyers. ... 1.2008.pdf

Part 2
http://www.news.cyprus-property-buyers. ... 2.2008.pdf

sounds more like we havent got insurance for pool so at your own risk so be it,reason perm owners and not renters is they know the risk,other wise others may sue for not having insurance

by **Islandboy** » 28 May 2015 11:18

Hi Jimmy,

Yes and no! Yes for the house and no for the pool however all our guests have holiday insurance and as I understand it liabilety is to do with known negligence.

Still.....getting the pool properly insured is universally desired whichever camp one is in.

Hot off the press though. The reliable source about the CY Government picking on the small development and categorizing its pool from a type 3 to a Type 2 was wrong. It is now said that it never happened and that the pool is and always was a pre 2000 Cyprus Legislation Pool and that the 2008 EU legislation is not enacted in Cyprus!

So still asking for definitive information on the 2008 EU legislation! In force / not in force ?????????

by **Jimmy Greaves Legend** » 28 May 2015 11:41

Island boy, dont take the risk on guests having Holiday insurance, you really dont know how good that is, get some insurance to cover the pool, if God forbid something goes wrong, then it could be very very costly.

by **Islandboy** » 28 May 2015 11:46

Yes Jimmy, with you on that.

I am sending off for quotes off my own bat and asking the insurance companies which law they will cover under. Watch this space.

by **kili1** » 28 May 2015 16:22

The pool where I live has a notice whch says that there is no lifeguard on duty at present. So swimmers use the pool at their own risk.

Don't know where that stands for insurance purposes, though. Can probably guess!

Dee

by **keving** » 28 May 2015 17:50

Could it be that this has nothing to do with legislation or insurance at all? Could it be that some owners who are permanent residents wish to selfishly restrict usage of the pool to owners only so that they can enjoy the pool without sharing it with holiday makers?

by **Islandboy** » 28 May 2015 18:46

I think so to Keving,

I think that they are taking the position that the EU 2008 Law is not in effect and working on an old pree 2000 law I think made in 1998. A very nasty law that made it almost impossible to run a pool. The 2008 EU is lovely written and clear and part of it clearly states that it supersedes any and all laws to do with swimming pools EU wide. If it is in effect then our pool will clearly be a Type 3. Not needing toilets, life guards etc. Also it specifically permits the use by persons renting property's. With this classification I hope to be able to get the pool insured for our holidaymakers.

Back to the question Cyprus Living! Is the 2008 EU Law in force in Cyprus or have they dodged it?

by **Wee Stumpy** » 28 May 2015 19:01

You might like to post this on Nigels site as he might miss it here in the General. I'm sure he might be able to help you!

by **Islandboy** » 28 May 2015 19:14

Good idea Stumpy!

I had just posted on leagal section too. someone must know? Its not a secret is it?

by **kili1** » 28 May 2015 20:01

Perhaps worth asking your solicitor? The trouble with some laws here is that they are very seldom enforced and many people ignore them. This may be the case with an irksome law on swimming pools.
I don't know if you actually live here, or if you just come and go. But trying to sue someone in Cyprus is a very tortuous, expensive and time wasting thing to do. There is a huge backlog of cases and to bring a case to court is likely to take several years... So this isn't a place that has a well developed sueing culture.

Dee

by **lofos-jan** » 28 May 2015 22:07

Found this on Nigel's site http://www.news.cyprus-property-buyers.com/2015/01/15/swimming-pools-law-changes/id=0047368

Jeanne

by **ming2007** » 29 May 2015 11:10

Just a thought but maybe you could get public liability insurance to cover your guests as you are renting the property. We had to have this when we were renting out a villa we own to holiday makers. Just a thought.

by **Mike Strand** » 29 May 2015 12:39

If you are an owner, presumably the owners were consulted by the committee about the change of rules. If the owners were not consulted then I would say the committee are overreaching their authority. Change such as this would require 75% of all owners to have voted to change the rules.

I wonder if the rules were set up in accordance with the law relating to complexes. In many cases I wonder if the roles were set up in accordance with the law relating to complexes I suspect not!

by **bev and ray peyia** » 29 May 2015 12:43

When we looked into getting insurance for our complex to include public liability and pool etc it was not a problem. However, there is NO insurance sold in Cyprus that covers anyone on a complex if they are an owner or owners tenants/holiday let.
An owner has to source a public liability insurance for each property from outside Cyprus.
This leads me to ask if the hotels in Cyprus have any insurance as they cannot get it in Cyprus.
My source was from the manager of Cosmos Insurance in Paphos.
Nothing regarding swimming pools is clear or I would imagine legally binding in Cyprus so as owners you have to cover your own back.
I do not rent out my apartment but if friends or family use it,I point out the situation and suggest they use the sea but if they decide to use the pool they do so at their own risk. I do not believe that holiday insurance would cover any accidents due to the problems either.

by **Mike Strand** » 29 May 2015 13:23

Bev & Ray, your information re insurance is incorrect. Our complex has Public Liability Insurance that covers owners/ tenants who are using the communal areas / pool / car park. As well as the company were are with I'm aware of at least two others in Cyprus.

by **bev and ray peyia** » 29 May 2015 17:00

Mike Strand

Hi Mike. I would be very interested to know who your insurance company is and the other 2. I am talking 4 years ago so maybe things have changed.We have public liability which covers "the public" ie, pool cleaners, electricians etc but does not cover owners or their paying guests etc.

Rgds Bev

by **Islandboy** » 29 May 2015 19:20

Hi all,

Ming 2007,

We are not adverse to spending to get things right. At the moment we are getting encouraging sounds from Cyprus Insurance companies who are not adverse to some new custom. What we are seeing seems so easy to get and so well priced I am wondering if there is a catch! Re reading and looking at the small print!

Mike Strand.

I speak with 13 years of involvement with our committee. Nothing is discussed outside of a small circle. This is understandable because the Committee Live Here All The Time and therefor know everything and are always right! Therefor there is no need to consult outside of their tight knit group. They communicate by means of proclamations. Fate acomply demands for money and dict tats that usually adversely effect those that rent out their property when not residing in them them selves. They also do some very good work for our development work that I would assist in if I knew about it and was consulted about firstly and not just required as a mindless laborer. Bit of a waste for an electrical engineer with legal and construction experience. Maybe they don't like the words I have a suggestion?

The committee wanting insurance protection is not unreasonable and if they cant find it then I shall do my best. I don't like the idea that this is only happening to us and that can't be right?

by **Mike Strand** » 29 May 2015 21:46

It took me a lot of time (& patience) to get Fire, Lightning & Earthquake insurance cover, together with Public liability Insurance cover for the communal areas & swimming pools, but we now have it and feel better for having it for all 102 apartments. We also have Committee Liability cover just in case we slip up as a committee and find ourselves being sued. We have taken out policies with CNP Asfalastiki. The policies are viewable on the complex website http://sooa-001.wix.com/sirena-olympia

Other companies who quoted are Atlantic & Abbeygate. Abbeygate's policies were virtually identical to Asfalastiki's and if they had accepted payment quarterly, we would possibly have favoured them (being British).

by **tremithousajohn** » 29 May 2015 22:50

As an aside to this thread but also linked, if holidaymakers book through a UK site should they expect the same rules as booking holiday accommodation in the UK, health and safety guidelines, gas and celectric safety checks, PAT testing etc.
Where would they go if anything goes wrong, local or UK no win, no fee solicitor?

by **Islandboy** » 29 May 2015 22:57

Mike Strand,

Does your development pool have a life guard or a phone number to call one if needed?

Something mentioned further up.

Oh and well noted those insurance co names.

Sharing information is what this is all about.

Thanks to you and all for contributing

Islandboy.....

tremithousajohn,

There is a book on the subject!

One thousand shades of grey! :))

But truly a serious question!

Some contracts have a passage in them as to which country's law the contract will dealt with. However I would expect that National Law would apply to the health and safety of whichever country.

This is not my opinion. I don't know!

by **kili1** » 30 May 2015 09:36

Health and safety is not yet very well developed in some respects here! You are safer if you think "at my own risk". This is not the UK or is it a nanny state.
Best advice is to check the wording (and the small print) in any official document or policy. Or to consult a good solicitor, if in doubt.

Dee

by **Mike Strand** » 30 May 2015 09:59

[quote="Islandboy"]Mike Strand,
Does your development pool have a life guard or a phone number to call one if needed?

"No Lifeguard on duty". The telephone number on the sign adjacent to the pool lifebuoys is that of the Iasis Hospital, 2 minutes away.

by **Jimmy Greaves Legend** » 30 May 2015 10:37

Ive got a feeling that you can put up as many signs as you want, in the case where someone gets injured or sadly loses their life.... they wont mean a thing in court.

by **bev and ray peyia** » 30 May 2015 15:28

Mike.

Thankyou Mike for the information. I see you have public liability which as far as I have been informed is not the same as "personal liability" ( I have checked again this week.) Public liability protects the public, i.e the post man, workmen, pool men and cleaners etc but does not cover owners and their tenants. Check with your insurers.I am quite impressed that for 102 properties you are only paying 6K ish when our complex of only 18 is paying 3K per annum. I will be asking our maintainance company to look into your insurers.

Rgds Bev

by **galexinda** » 02 Jun 2015 19:05

Just read this article on Tala Community News

http://talanews.blogspot.com/2015/06/co ... ty+News%29

If you are a community with a swimming pool, please be aware that the various Municipalities and Health Departments are starting to check up on public swimming pool operation as a result of a number of drownings last year.

There is now a European Regulation EN15288 regarding swimming pools . This is split:

EN15288-1 - Safety requirements for design
EN15288-2 - Safety requirements for operation

Click link for more detailed information

by **Islandboy** » 03 Jun 2015 19:23

This EN15288-2 was a lovely bit of top quality EU Legislation Galexinda.

So easy to read and so easy to understand. Everyone knew where they stood with it and THEN ...... Cyprus authority's got hold of it and twisted it into something that it was never intended to be.

I know we are not in the UK and that UK law does not hold sway here in Cyprus and nor should it. But in UK the words Public and Private are well defined in law. That EU legislation will have been written and translated into many languages. I wonder how it translated into Greek? Also wonder if Greek Cypriot Law has defined definitions of what Public and Private mean?

However this is EU Law, or as has been suggested to me EU standard not law! To be adopted or not as the country wishes! If it is law and has to be adopted. Then surely the EU interpretation of Public and Private should hold sway and any nay sayers could / should easy be kicked into touch.

I just wonder why our several Cyprus MEP's haven't got their teeth into it. I haven't tried them as the last time I tried to contact ALL of our Cyprus MEP's I got ZERO reply's. This was about another matter! UK MEP Arlene McCarthy has been batting for her constituent Cyprus property owners over this. A question asked about it by her in Brussels did get a response and I think that was that implementation of the Law was optional. I took that to mean, take it or leave it BUT DON'T CHANGE IT!

Seems an easy not to crack! Just needs a Cypriot Legislator to give someone a slap and to get them to read the legislation properly. At the moment it seems like trying to argue with a drunk or The Child Support Agency!

Or .... is there another law that they are using to do with these Public / Private pool classifications?

I'm still working on it! Retired and all!

by **Mike Strand** » 05 Jun 2015 21:53

Does anyone have any info re a company that installs pool safety fencing called 'Safe Home Cyprus'? The contact name I have is Ian Plumtree; txt msgs fail to get through.

by **Happy in Cyprus** » 05 Jun 2015 23:03

Mike Strand wrote:txt msgs fail to get through.

After we took legal action against Mr Plumtree two or three years ago, the company folded and I believe he went back to the UK.

by **Mike Strand** » 12 Jun 2015 09:50

Ray

Indeed our Public liability insurance does not cover owners & tenants, but I have now received confirmation from the company that these can be included for an additional premium of just €45 per year.

by **stephen conway** » 13 Jun 2015 17:55

Hi Islandboy.
I am not sure on private Villars, But I know in our Complex to get the correct insurance you have to have a residents constitution and locked gates and fencing as I now think this is law, but not 100% shore, but we did this two years ago. If you are renting your clients must be covered by your insurance. I think it is best that you seek some Legal advice to cover your self on this matter.
Steve.

by **galexinda** » 16 Jun 2015 12:23

By Bejay Browne Cyprus Mail Tuesday 16 June

UNLICENSED pools in Paphos are causing a health hazard and attracting mosquitos, according to local officials who say they are addressing the issues.

Head of the Paphos municipality public health committee, Fylaktis Konstantinides, told the Cyprus Mail that the situation was out of control.

Konstantinides said that the problem was particularly prevalent at apartment complexes in Paphos, where many owners use them only as holiday homes.

“There are many swimming pools which have not applied for a licence to operate as such. I’m referring to public pools which are classed as public pools, such as those in a block of five or six flats. This obviously excludes hotels.”

The public health committee head said the pools shouldn’t be referred to as “illegal swimming pools” but “unlicensed swimming pools.”

http://cyprus-mail.com/2015/06/16/huge- ... in-paphos/

by **Mike Strand** » 17 Jun 2015 22:02

The Cyprus mail reported yesterday about the law on SALES periods in shops. The para's below illustrate that EU Directives take precedence over local laws:_-

The bill is the result of a 2012 Supreme Court ruling, which argued that setting specific periods for sales, although in compliance with local law, violated a 2005 European Union directive on unfair commercial practices.

The case related to fines imposed on retailers in 2011 by the Limassol District Court for selling apparel at a discount outside of the ministry-mandated sales period.

The three appealed the verdict, and the Supreme Court found that the EU directive did, in fact, supersede local law, and overturned the decision.

One would logically therefore believe that local laws re pools have also been superseded by the EU Directive on pools.

by **emgee** » 18 Jun 2015 07:43

Mike

There is no logic in Cyprus.

Alan

by **Mike Strand** » 18 Jun 2015 10:25

That's illogical Alan! :))

There's plenty of twisted logic in Cyprus. ~x(

by **Admin** » 01 Jul 2015 06:06

keving wrote:Could it be that this has nothing to do with legislation or insurance at all? Could it be that some owners who are permanent residents wish to selfishly restrict usage of the pool to owners only so that they can enjoy the pool without sharing it with holiday makers?

Selfishly?

If you pay for the pool usage then it should only be used by those pool owners who do pay!, because that is who owns any pool in a complex, many complex residents will feel aggrieved if some that use it's pool facilities never pay for the expensive running cost's, and they would be correct I feel.

by **emgee** » 01 Jul 2015 10:36

Jim

You are sooooooooooo right on this one.

Why should non-owners come into the pool area and "take it over" for two weeks. Our pool offers no beds, no umbrellas, nothing and yet families spend two weeks in Cyprus sitting around the pool or watching videos during the evening. Each to their own, but Cyprus has so much more to offer than this.

Alan

by **Mike Strand** » 01 Jul 2015 12:53

Personally I see nothing wrong with holidaymakers who have rented from an owner (one who has paid his annual maintenance charges) using the facilities. many complexes were originally marketed as potential 'holiday lets'. What I do object to most strongly is those owners who are in debt to the Owners Association who feel they have the right to use the facilities, "because I live here".

by **stephen conway** » 02 Jul 2015 14:41

Hi Islandboy.
As explained in my last post, all home owners will have to form a Constitution on there site, after this has been done you will be able to get a insurance. You will require a secretary Chairman a Bank Account etc.. It dose take a long time, as we did discover. Plus all the Safety factors for your site.
Steve.

by **Mike Strand** » 03 Jul 2015 19:55

Even when owners are fully paid-up, they invite all the extended family to come and use the pool, even when the owner is not in the party! Bloody cheek of some people! Ask them to leave & you can expect abuse!

CyprusLiving

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