Pity the Brexpats

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Pity the Brexpats

Postby Lofos-5 » 04 Jun 2016 07:47

“OF THOSE British expats in this room, how many are considering applying for German citizenship?” comes a voice from the crowd. Nervous laughter ripples around the packed basement bar near the Reichstag in Berlin, then most of those present raise a hand. “We keep on being asked about that,” responds Jon Worth, the British Berliner hosting this meeting for expatriates worried about Brexit. “It’s become a matter of the head rather than the heart. If having a German passport makes it easier to stay here, then it’s a no-brainer to apply.”

That is a measure of the uncertainty among Britain’s continental expats, estimated by the UN to number about 1.3m. Questions for a panel of experts at the event—including a Briton who recently obtained a German passport, partly as insurance against Brexit—are detailed and urgent. When would postal votes be sent out? Would self-employed Britons have to apply for a German work permit after Brexit? “At the moment we have plenty of questions, but far too few answers,” observes Mr Worth, who has organised similarly popular gatherings in Hamburg and Cologne (others have followed in Munich and Copenhagen).

The confusion comes in two varieties. The first, more immediate sort concerns the mechanics of voting in the referendum. Unlike, say, the Netherlands, Britain has no central office recording where expats are, sending out ballots, then collecting and distributing them to the right local authorities in time. It shows. British embassies have publicised the wrong deadline for registration (the correct one is June 7th); postal votes have been sent abroad with too little postage; expat voter details have been mislaid by local councils. Small wonder that, of the roughly 5m Britons around the world, only about 200,000 are registered.

Then there is the more long-term source of uncertainty: what would Brexit mean for Britons on the continent? As the Leave and Remain campaigns have traded lurid claims—comparing the EU to Hitler, claiming that a vote for Brexit would embolden Islamic State—the practical implications for the hundreds of thousands of expats in other EU states have been largely ignored. The Leave campaign, in particular, belittles them and their livelihoods with its assertions (breathtaking in their misplaced breeziness) that they “have nothing to fear” from Britain leaving the EU.

Brexiteers point to the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, under which “vested” (acquired) rights are deemed to outlive the treaty conferring them. They note it applied when Greenland withdrew from the EU in 1985. Yet there is no certainty about how it would be interpreted in Britain’s case. Lawyers retort that the convention refers to state rights, not individual ones, so offers no post-Brexit guarantee of a Briton’s freedom to reside, work, trade and use public services in another EU country. The convention is not mentioned in Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty (which codifies the process of leaving the union), nor is France even a signatory. On June 1st Spain’s prime minister warned that leaving the EU could cost Britons the right to live and work in his country. And the Greenland precedent? “Scarcely relevant,” says a House of Commons report, because of the tiny number involved.

That means protections for expats need to be secured as part of Britain’s exit negotiations. But will they be? If the country sought an arrangement similar to Norway’s, whereby it kept the trade benefits of EU membership in exchange for preserving freedom of movement, this might well be possible. But the Leave campaign is increasingly defining a pro-Brexit vote on June 23rd as a mandate for a draconian clamp-down: on June 1st Vote Leave, the official Out campaign, proposed slamming the door on all EU citizens except those with particular skills. If this happened, reciprocal restrictions would presumably apply to Britons planning to move to the continent. How it would affect those who have already done so is unclear. In the event of Brexit, European leaders are likely to try to discourage copycats by pointedly restricting the full benefits of EU citizenship to full EU citizens.

Don’t let’s be beastly to the Anglo-Germans

All this is part of a wider story: Britain tends to disregard its diaspora. The country limits its expats’ voting rights (which are withdrawn after 15 years abroad) and certain welfare payments. It freezes their pensions and makes relatively little effort to find out where they are, what they are doing or even how many of them exist. And this in a technological age when other governments are going to new lengths to engage their emigrants. Ireland is building a giant database of its diaspora, to help nurture and woo it; New Zealand runs a social network for far-flung Kiwis. Mexico, India and China see their emigrants as soft-power warriors and try to lure high-flyers, with their international experience and connections, back home. France and Italy both have overseas parliamentary constituencies and let their expats vote in embassies.

Overlooked and poorly represented, perhaps Britain’s expats can blame their image problem. In the popular imagination at home they are the bacon-and-eggs brigade: witness “Benidorm”, a cheesy television comedy about ageing, lobster-skinned dipsomaniacs on the Spanish Costas. Yet why should such Britons, many of whom have paid into the welfare state for decades before moving abroad, be treated as second-class citizens?

And in any case the profile of the British diaspora is evolving: improvements in technology, cheap travel and the high cost of living in Britain are propelling highly skilled workers overseas in search of opportunities. Statistics show that British emigrants are increasingly likely to be university-educated and to hold a professional job. Thus the typical expat is becoming more like those scientists, entrepreneurs and lawyers with whom Bagehot mingled in Berlin. Such folk are not deserters. They are stimulants to trade, promoters of British culture and values, and vessels of worldly contacts and knowledge. All of which Britain will need more than ever if, on June 23rd, it votes for Brexit.

Economist.com/blogs/bagehot
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Pity the Brexpats

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Re: Pity the Brexpats

Postby Amazon » 04 Jun 2016 10:09

Brits have for many years lived and worked in other countries EU or not. Why does anyone think that all those living in EU countries only did so after UK joined the EU?

There are a lot of Brits living in Cyprus who moved here well before Cyprus joined the EU in 2004, why would anything change? There continues to be a lot of rubbish talked about UK leaving the EU. One thing quoted is that you may have to apply for a Visa to travel to Europe. Is there anyone out there who ever applied for a Visa to travel to Cyprus pre 2004, or to Spain, Italy or France prior to the UK joining the EU?
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Re: Pity the Brexpats

Postby Jim B » 04 Jun 2016 10:40

Because Cyprus wasn't a member pre-2004, it is now and will have to follow the rules set out by the club and like ALL non EU Citizens we would have to apply for Visas. Times have changed and no longer like it used to be. I know lots of Russians who lived here prior to 2004 and they had visas on entry, things changed for them so why wouldn't it change for the British?

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Re: Pity the Brexpats

Postby Amazon » 04 Jun 2016 14:13

I think you misunderstood my point. Prior to Jan 1st 1973 the UK was not a member of what was then the EEC and if the people of the UK decide to leave this Union on June 23rd the UK will return to the status it had on December 31st 1972.

The point I was trying to make was that before that date myself and many other Brits travelled to countries like France, Italy and Holland who were members of the Union and we did not have to apply for visas. The only difference was your passport was stamped on entry and exit (in other words this was your visa to enter and leave the country) My only other recollection was filling in cards during a flight which were handed back to the stewardess before landing.

The impression being given is that if the UK leaves travellers will have to apply (presumably by visiting an embassy) and pay for a visa to enter France. Chaos will follow chaos as the queues at the French Embassy in London will stretch back to Buck House. No more last minute trips and probably Ryanair will go out of business.
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Re: Pity the Brexpats

Postby Jim B » 04 Jun 2016 14:41

But you miss the point that there was no Schengen area in those days and everyone who is not an EU Citizen now has to obtain a Visa to enter the Schengen area. We have to do it all the time for the wife even though under EU rules she shouldn't have to obtain a visa as she is married to an EU Citizen EU countries and airlines prefer people in my wife's position to apply for Visas.

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Re: Pity the Brexpats

Postby rita sherry » 04 Jun 2016 17:47

Jim B and Amazon

I have to agree with Amazon re visas etc. Jim. I see your point but the point is the UK is not part of either the Schengen Agreement or the Schengen area so those rules do not apply to the UK and we have and still do travel to the European countries without vIsas. I think you will find Jim that your wife requires a visa because although she is married to a British Citizen the UK is not part of the agreement and as such she is classed as a person who whist a member of a EU Nationals family she herself is outside the area and separate rules apply.

Can I give you a little history of the Schengen Agreemet. It was first signed on 14th June 1985 by 5 out of 10 member states and supplemented in 1990 by the Schengen Convention (which proposed abolition of internal border control). Originally the Schengen Treaties and the Rules adopted under this operated independently from the EU owing to lack of consensus among EU member states (the UK in particular) over whether or not the EU had the jurisdiction to abolish border controls. However in 1999 they were incorporated into EU law by virtue of the Amsterdam Treaty whilst providing opt outs for two member States, The Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom. Both of these countries had a Common Travel Area since 1923 and still does.

Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania are still outside the area for various reasons (Cyprus due to reunification problems and Croatia due to Hungary threatening to use its veto)

Since 22nd March 2016 Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Norway and Sweden have imposed controls on some or all of their borders with other Schengen States. I have personally travelled to four of those countries producing my passport as always.

I think Jim you need to check the rules appertaining to countries who have not been granted the right of accession with regard to your wife who I believe, has obtained residency status in Cyprus, and her status as a member of a British Citizen's immediate family.

Meantime I agree as I say with Amazon on this matter plus a lot of nonsense is being conveyed to the British Public in what is supposed to be a free vote for the population relating to their and the country's future. For the life of me I cannot see why someone cannot provide two lists of the pros and cons so people can make their own minds up. On the other hand the politicians of whatever hue would manage to screw that up on present form.

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Re: Pity the Brexpats

Postby Amazon » 04 Jun 2016 20:58

Thank you for the information Rita.
Scare mongering on both sides seems to be the norm. But on the subject of visas why are the remain campaign stating that UK citizens may have to obtain visas to enter the Schengen Area? After all Australians, Americans and New Zealanders do not need a Schengen visa as long as their stay is less than 90 days. Only citizens from approx. 120 countries require an entry visa.
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Re: Pity the Brexpats

Postby Jim B » 05 Jun 2016 09:20

Hello Rita

I read your comments with interest and will try and clarify the procedures we presently have to follow.
If my wife travels with me accompanying her, we should under EU Law be able to enter the Schengen Area without the requirement of a Visa. If she travels on her own she has to apply for a Visa for the Port of Entry into the Schengen Area and again she can travel throughout the Schengen area without requiring additional Visas. The only condition is that we or she has to leave the leave the Schengen Area from the original Port of Entry.

Generally, Schengen member countries inform non EU spouses they have to apply for a Tourist Visa when travelling with their EU spouses even though this is not correct and airlines (not knowing the law) will refuse them access onto flights without a Visa. The only three EU countries my wife requires a visa to enter when accompanied by me are the UK, Ireland and used to be Cyprus though Cyprus do allow visitors with Schengen Visas or Residency in Schengen member countries to visit.

Amazon is correct in stating Australians, Americans and New Zealanders do not need a Schengen visa as long as their stay is less than 90 days but this was negotiated and took a period of time to put into place and the UK would have to negotiate similar conditions. I just spoke to a couple of Australian work colleagues and they confirmed they had to initially apply for Visas when the Schengen agreement was first set up.

I was in Moscow at the Cypriot Embassy in 2004 applying for a Visa for my wife and I saw firsthand the chaos of Russians applying for visas for their Christmas holidays in Cyprus as the old system of visa on entry had been replaced by new EU regulations. It took about four years to set up Visa Applications On Line for Russians. To believe everything will be as before is naive and that is not scaremongering.

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